Post subject: Re: just as .... so
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:26 am just as .... so is idiomatic in Cyes.
just memorize this as a 2-piece parallelism signal. unlike most parallelism signals, though, it requires an independent clause after each part (a relatively unusual construction).
i've always hated this construction, because the more concise "just as ... [nothing] ..." - i.e., the same construction, without the "so" - is also idiomatic. therefore, the "so", in my opinion, is pointlessly wordy, unless it relieves the sentence of some ambiguity.
note that (b), which ostensibly uses the more concise construction, is ungrammatical: "an archaeologist who needs a background in art history to evaluate finds of ancient art" is a sentence fragment. it's a subject + modifier, and doesn't have a verb.
[I highlighted "is ungrammatical" above]
Is (B) ungrammatical because it is not logically parallel?
I understand that "an archaeologist who ... ancient art" is a sentence fragment. But I believe the entire sentence ("Just as an archaeologist who ...ancient art, a nautical archaeologist ... understand shipwrecks") as such is a complete sentence and not a fragment. So why is (B) ungrammatical? is it because it is not parallel?
I believe "As" can act as a preposition, in which it is followed by a noun rather than a clause. For example,
- As a child, I thought I could fly. Or
- As your leader, I am in charge.
Can we treat the use of "as" in (B) as preposition mentioned in above examples?
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:58 am Is (B) ungrammatical because it is not logically parallel? I understand that "an archaeologist who ... ancient art" is a sentence fragment. But I believe the entire sentence ("Just as an archaeologist who ...ancient art, a nautical archaeologist ... understand shipwrecks") as such is a complete sentence and not a fragment. So why is (B) ungrammatical? is it because it is not parallel?
no.
if "as" is used to make a comparison or to draw an analogy, then it must be followed by a complete clause.
the structure “just as… so…” always draws a comparison/analogy, so a complete clause, with its own subject and verb, will always be required after “just as” in this structure.
I believe "As" can act as a preposition, in which it is followed by a noun rather than a clause. For example,- As a child, I thought I could fly. Or
- As your leader, I am in charge.
Can we treat the use of "as" in (B) as preposition mentioned in above examples?
no; those constructions have a fundamentally different meaning. note that they are not comparisons or analogies. (your question "Can we treat the use ..." is a little bit worrisome, because it suggests that you believe that the meaning of the sentence has no importance at all -- i.e., you are suggesting a change in interpretation that will completely change the meaning of the entire sentence, and you don't seem to see why that would be a problem.)
also, you can't use "just" in a construction like that. try it; you'll see that it doesn't work.
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C.F. Forbes Post subject: Re: Just like the background in art history . . .
Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:33 pm Got it!I neglected the word "just" in (B) and thought we can treat "as ..." and "just as..." in similar ways. Now I understand that they are quite different - just how much a difference the word "just" can make.
Thanks for clarifying it Ron. You rock!
Post subject: Re: Just like the background in art history . . . Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:07 am One more follow up question -You mentioned that :
"if "as" is used to make a comparison or to draw an analogy, then it must be followed by a complete clause."
In the SC strategy guide I came across following example:
- As in the previous case, the judge took an early break.
Here 'as' is not followed by a clause. It is followed by the phrase 'in the previous case'. How this is so?
Isn't in this sentence 'as' is used to make a comparison of judge's action between the previous case and the current case?
Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:49 am One more follow up question -You mentioned that :
"if "as" is used to make a comparison or to draw an analogy, then it must be followed by a complete clause."
In the SC strategy guide I came across following example:
- As in the previous case, the judge took an early break.
Here 'as' is not followed by a clause. It is followed by the phrase 'in the previous case'. How this is so?
Isn't in this sentence 'as' is used to make a comparison of judge's action between the previous case and the current case?
this is a correct observation. in this kind of situation, “as” may be followed either by a clause or by a prepositional phrase.
if our materials don't mention the possibility of a prepositional phrase, then they definitely should; i will inform the appropriate editors so that they can include that fact in the next editions.
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Being well-dressed gives a feeling of inward tranquillity [that] religion is powerless to bestow.
C.F. Forbes Post subject: Re: Just like the background in art history . . .
Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:49 pm Hi,Suppose we use like instead of as in choice B,does it become correct?
b)Just as an archaeologist who needs a background in art history to evaluate finds of ancient art, a
to
b)Just like an archaeologist who needs a background in art history to evaluate finds of ancient art, a
We are comparing two nouns here after using like..so archaeologist is compared to nautical archaeologist..
Post subject: Re: Just like the background in art history . . . Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:48 pm Hi,Suppose we use like instead of as in choice B,does it become correct?
b)Just as an archaeologist who needs a background in art history to evaluate finds of ancient art, a
to
b)Just like an archaeologist who needs a background in art history to evaluate finds of ancient art, a
We are comparing two nouns here after using like..so archaeologist is compared to nautical archaeologist..
nope, still wrong.
if you write "Like A, [modifiers], B must xxxxx", then the meaning is that both A and B must xxxx.
e.g.
Like professional athletes who need extra flexibility, physical-therapy patients often take dance lessons.
--> this sentence implies that professional athletes and PT patients take dance lessons.
thus, your new version is not sensible, because the art person doesn't need to know about ships.
(by the way, this is the exact reason why the more bulky "(Just) as..." construction even exists in the first place -- because "like" can't draw an analogy between two different things. if you could do that with "like", then the "as" construction most likely wouldn't even exist in the language, because there'd be no need for it.)
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Being well-dressed gives a feeling of inward tranquillity [that] religion is powerless to bestow.
C.F. Forbes Post subject: Re: Just like the background in art history . . .
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